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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 15, 2008 3:45:04 GMT -5
some people beleive that God send people who have taken there own life striaght to hell what do you think?
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Post by zooba on Apr 15, 2008 3:54:45 GMT -5
We actually dicussed this in another thread a little while ago. I think the general consensus was, yes true Christians can commit suicide, and yes they go to heaven since salvation is based on faith and not works. Thats a summary of like 3 pages of dialogue though.
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 4:02:18 GMT -5
We had a discussion about this some time last year in the spiritual section here, but we never really came up with a clear Biblical answer. Most agreed that God would forgive suiciders, but we could see the arguments both ways.
I am of the view that Jesus died for all sins, including the ones that we will commit in the future. The way I look at it, is that if suicide is a sin (which I believe it is) and we get sent to hell for it, then that means there is a group of people who Jesus didn't die for. The only people who have no hope are those who knowingly rejected Christ in this life.
Having been suicidally depressed before, I found great comfort if believing that if I killed myself I would go to Heaven. I have the feeling that if I believed the opposite, I would have never recovered as I would have had no way out, no comforting "plan B". Thankfully I'm still alive, but just knowing that if everything seemed to get too hard to manage, there was a way out, was a help. To me, the real question was not where I would go, but what would it say about my faith if I killed myself. To me, it came down to "Do I have enough faith in God, to get me out of this?" and "Do I have the faith to trust that this is all part of His will?"
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 4:04:00 GMT -5
We actually dicussed this in another thread a little while ago. I think the general consensus was, yes true Christians can commit suicide, and yes they go to heaven since salvation is based on faith and not works. Thats a summary of like 3 pages of dialogue though. We can probably go a bit deeper than that now I suppose. We also only ever talked about the issue from a protestant view.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 15, 2008 4:22:39 GMT -5
ok ok yes well Rowly i have been a pretty bad victim of suicidal thoughts and actions so i know how you feel man [hugs] . I think that answer you gave is totaly spot on what i want to know is where did the idea of going to hell for suicide come from? is it not in the bible. Also for anyone who feels down ever our music is full of lyrics for the suicidaly depressed and just people down in the dumps genreally and music for that matter God bless you all - James
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 4:35:26 GMT -5
The idea of going to hell for suicide comes from the idea that confessed sin is not forgiven, and also the Catholic idea of Mortal Sins.
My girlfriend is Catholic so I've been learning more about it, and have come to respect them a lot more than I used to, but I still disagree with a lot of what they teach, such as Mortal Sins.
The basic idea (if I can remember it properly) is that suicide is murder, which is against one of the 10 Commandments. Once you are dead, its too late to ask forgiveness.
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Post by zooba on Apr 15, 2008 9:12:24 GMT -5
I have never been suicidally depressed, but a good Christian friend of mine committed suicide last year so I do have some...attachment to this question (please still don't hesitate to disagree with me though! I won't get upset or offended).
I think people who believe that you can lose your salvation by committing certain sins have a fundamental misunderstanding of what salvation actually is. Though its too late at night for me to quote any verses, we are saved because Christ's death forgives us of all our sin, and Christ's resurrection clothes us in his righteousness. And it is in His righteousness given to us alone that allows us to stand before the Father without any spot or blemish. Our works cannot add or subtract from this. From start to finish salvation has nothing to do with us or our works. It really does amaze me that some people can think that you cannot earn your salvation by works, yet you can still lose it by works. Works and salvation are fundamentally separate from each other. I am a firm adherent of what is known as 'perseverance of the saints', also known as 'eternal security' or more commonly, 'once saved, always saved'.
A fabulous book I can recommend on this topic (the whole topic of the Biblical model of salvation) is 'The God Who Justifies' by James R. White. He spends the first half of the book giving a basic overview of salvation, before going into a more indepth analysis of the main passages of scripture that deal with this topic (Romans, Galatians, etc), which is a bit harder to wade through but definately worth the effort.
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 9:23:49 GMT -5
My biggest problem with the "once saved, always saved" is how do you know you are saved? My next issue is regarding sin, if you are forgiven for them all, why not keep on sinning?
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Post by zooba on Apr 15, 2008 9:35:25 GMT -5
well, how do you know that you are saved anyways? I have heard that objection before and it really makes no sense to me (you know of course that I don't mean any offense by saying that). I would say that I am saved because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed me from all sin. Since he is capable of saving his people to the uttermost because he always lives to make intercession for them (its in Hebrews, I think, I don't remember the exact verse) and that intercession does not fail, and since he loses none that are His (John 6), I have total assurance in my eternal salvation.
I actually wonder how people who don't believe in 'once saved, always saved' have any assurance of salvation. If you were to die 3 years from now, would you go to heaven? how do you know? I mean sure, maybe you intend to continue in your faith now, but a lot can change in 3 years. Maybe you will be run over by a truck and just before you die you say a blasphemous word, lose your salvation and end up in hell, despite having been a good Christian your whole life. Which sins make you lose your salvation and which don't? I know that with the Catholic concept of mortal sin that you mentioned, the Catholic church has never officially (infallibly) defined which sins are mortal and which aren't. Depending on how conservative the priest is that you ask, you will be given very different answers to the question of what is and what isn't a mortal sin.
Your next issue is also a common one, and a valid one. The doctrine of perseverance of the saints however is that if you are truly saved then you won't keep on sinning simply because you are regenerated and are being conformed to the image of Christ and so as a true believer your sins will continually repulse you. By contrast, those who appeared to be believers, yet have fallen away into sin (eg. Roger Martinez) show that they were never saved in the first place, because 'if they were truly of us, they would have remained with us, and it is by their leaving us that they show they were never of us.' Another quote from Paul...again I don't remember the exact verse :-( If you'd like I can go back later and get all the verses I have quoted here and post them, but I'm off to bed soon so I can't be bothered now.
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 9:48:33 GMT -5
By contrast, those who appeared to be believers, yet have fallen away into sin (eg. Roger Martinez) show that they were never saved in the first place This is my problem. If you had asked ANYONE back around the time of Vengeance Rising, they would have said Roger was saved. To say that he was never saved, to me, does not make sense. He brought many people to Christ, and spoke with such fire that there was no doubt he knew the Lord. If he wasn't saved, then all those people were saved through a deception.
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Post by zooba on Apr 15, 2008 10:00:10 GMT -5
(Ok, so I haven't gone to bed yet...soon)
Well, ultimately we can never know anyone's hearts. Actually one of my friends in highschool, who for a time was actually running a small group at her church, has just recently gone off to alice springs to have a dedication ceremony to her new lesbian lover...
I'm sure you agree that the majority of people who once would have called themselves Christians yet now call themselves agnostics/atheists or whatever were never truly saved? Well, some of them are more involved in the church than others. Ultimately God can use any means that he wants to bring people to salvation. I have heard of people being saved to true Christianity by tracts handed out by Mormons/JWs.
This is the verse I had in mind (and it was from John, not Paul :-(. oh well nevermind):
I John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
These people were followers of the Apostles - people who had actually seen Jesus, who spoke in tongues, healed the sick, raised the dead etc., and yet they were still never truly believers.
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 10:17:06 GMT -5
To do those things though, you need the Holy Spirit, which only resides in those who are saved.
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Post by trailblazer777 on Apr 15, 2008 17:02:40 GMT -5
Yes God does accept suiciders into heaven just like any other person because forgiveness is once and for all directly through the Christ our Maker and Redeemer, not through some human "false priest" in the catholic groups or any other means...once and for all through the Christ is all we need...and all that matters far above all else in this life. old thread on suicide in spiritual discussion section is @ dansoutpost.proboards46.com/v45index.cgi?board=spirit&action=display&thread=686good discussion although getting a bit off topic... IMO; suicide is wrong cos it is wasting the life God has blessed us. "no eye has seen what God has prepared..." Christ died for all sins past and present, so if we have truly asked for forgivenesss from him at any time in our life and accepted his Lordship, we are "once saved,always saved., regardless of wheher we suicide, fall away or get confused, and/or lose trust in God. people like Martinez either never were saved (in which case maybe God used other band members or his un-committed to God but correct in some cases lyrics for Heavens purposes...) God can still use non-christians actions for His purposes... , or maybe he was saved and will be in heaven, but has got confused, lead astray later in life. either way God is the only one who knows for 100% sure if Martinez is saved for alltime. So I think we leave that question to God, view with caution the whole VengeanceRising thing, but still use their music if it helps us in the main mission which is to further the Kingdom of God given that we are "destined for ascension" at the end of all of it,and make the most of the life and potential our Maker has given us..."no eye has seen, no ear has heard..."... oh yeah can you tell Ive been listening to a lot of Grave Forsakens "destined for ascension" lately...*lol*
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 15, 2008 20:04:34 GMT -5
wooo i love making a thread grow haha!. If i were to commit suicide it would be Gods will and he would know this. Christ died for all sins that means all sins if you accept jesus it does not matter what you do he will always love and forgive this is whats so great about God hes merciful the catholic stuff doesent come striaght from the bible like this does. This is my personal opinion God bless - James
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 15, 2008 20:53:02 GMT -5
If i were to commit suicide it would be Gods will and he would know this. I do not agree with this. I do not believe it is ever in God's will for us to sin. ...we're going to have to discuss free will/pre-destination now aren't we I had a close friend who held that same view, and kept saying if he killed himself, it was because he was meant to. Thats garbage, Jesus came so that we "may live life, and live it to the full". Suicide is not living life. God also never gives us more than we can handle, and suicide is the escape mechanism when we are tied down by more than we can handle. Breifly, the way I see it, God does have everything planned out, but only the major stages. He has set the goals, and leaves it up to us to reach them. Regardless of what we choose, He can use our actions for good. This way, although suicide is an option, its escaping His will for us.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 15, 2008 22:04:24 GMT -5
Thats a fair point Rowly this is true God does not create sin but he allows us to walk into it to be tested. However everyything is suppose to be Gods will i see this as God knowing whats gonna happen in some cases and in others God means for things to happen. I do however that God forgives the sin of Suicide. God bless you Rowl - James
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Post by rockergirl on Apr 15, 2008 22:22:23 GMT -5
Without rehashing too much what i had said on the other "suicide" thread i would just like to add a few comments here.
Yes i believe once saved always saved as if it were not so this would contradict the Bible. As stated in a former post scripture says "Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin including suicide however suicide is not something i would recommend as one still has to answer to God for this action and i also do not agree that a suicide is part of God's will for a person.Also in scripture in Phillippians 1:6 we read "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ", 2 Timothy 3:12 we need to remember " Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" which means life can and will get hard and finally "God will not allow anyone to endure a situation they cannot bear"(can't find the scripture off the bat sorry).
Now as far as the fallen Christian angle that was mentioned with the likes of Roger Martinez true believers never truly fall away as the bible says "if they were really of us they would of remained with us".Whether or not Roger truly was saved to begin with hinges on if he is to come back before he dies or asks the Lord to forgive him for his turning away before his death.The same goes for Gary Lenaire from "Tourniquet" however given the current fruits being displayed by both these people it would seem they were never really of us to begin with.As with the Phillippians verse the good work being done through a person by God until the end is evidence that God is still working in their life AND THUS IS A BIBLICAL PROMISE AND ACTION.
The hebrews passage mentioned by someone earlier is Hebrews chapter 6 and on the surface as reading one would think a person can lose their salvation however when you break it down and find out the actual meaning of this passage(i recommend using a study bible) the main point the passage is making is that it is impossible for a saved person to lose their salvation.The saving power and work of the cross would have failed if it were so and other scripture contradicts this concept as well.
Whether or not Roger and Gary were truly of God time will tell and at the end of the day only really God knows as their final breath will be the last chance they will have to come back so as only God knows the future and thoughts and intentions of the heart he alone can only truly know the true salvation status of those people and others like them.
If Roger,Gary were not true followers and anyone else for that matter does not mean God can and has not used them for his purpose.Many tv evangelists have bitten the dust over the years however this does not mean their converts received a false salvation.God can and will use saint, sinner or sheep in wolves clothing alike for his purposes.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 15, 2008 22:40:17 GMT -5
wow! im still digesting that very well explained though!. I truly beleive that anyone can go to the darkest depths i really do and christians have commited suicide. The point is Jesus still loves them and forgives them and has wiped them clean. I think only God can answer the question of whether he will let a man or woman endure an unbearable situation because even a situation like that has its reasons. God bless
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