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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 17, 2008 2:43:29 GMT -5
Alot of people believe that God is Jesus and Jesus is God etc but Jesus prays to his father up in Heaven and there is plenty of mention of the holy spirit in the bible what do you think?
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 17, 2008 3:10:13 GMT -5
Its one of the great mysteries... God is three separate beings, yet they are all the same....
Pretty impossibly to understand with the way western society thinks
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 17, 2008 3:50:35 GMT -5
yeh tru i guess you form your own opinion but only God knows i think of it as 3 seperate beings
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Post by zooba on Apr 17, 2008 5:45:31 GMT -5
The Bible teaching on the nature of God is clear and frankly in my opinion quite inarguable: God is one in essence, yet three in person - the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. Anything else - modalism, arianism, unitarianism, polytheism, whatever, is blasphemy.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 17, 2008 6:04:51 GMT -5
youch fair anough what the bible says gos
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Post by zooba on Apr 17, 2008 6:15:17 GMT -5
hehe, well, one thing you will quickly learn about me is that I have very little tolerance for postmodernism - the idea that everyone is right in their own way and you can believe what you believe and I can believe what I believe and we can all be happy together. Now, obviously there is room for disagreement in non-essential areas (like, say, infant baptism, or amillenialism vs. premillenialism or whatever) but even then I do not say that everyone can just believe whatever they want to and its all ok. The truth matters - there is a right answer and a wrong answer to every point of contention and I believe that the right answer is inherently better than the wrong answer.
You cannot really have any doctrine more central or important to Christianity however than the doctrine of who God is. I hesitate not for a second therefore is saying that the Trinity is a central and defining Christian doctrine.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 17, 2008 6:20:47 GMT -5
tru man tru i just ike to form opinions on what im unsure on i guess but if the bible answers them thats the end of it !. anyway God has a answer to everything anyway and that comforts me.
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Post by zooba on Apr 17, 2008 7:20:53 GMT -5
If you are interested in reading more on the topic I recommend the book 'The Forgotten Trinity' by James White. He wrote the book specifically with the common folk in mind (ie. not just for scholars), especially for those who have trouble understanding the specifics of the doctrine. Also a good web resource is www.carm.org/doctrine.htm
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 17, 2008 11:01:15 GMT -5
The thing about the Trinity is it is only ever implied in the Bible and in most of the creeds, yet it is still thought of as essential to out faith.
Zooba knows his stuff (except when it comes to hair metal bands), and hes currently working in a Christian bookstore, so can easily look up almost anything you could ask him. Although just like everything, always check what he says against the Scriptures.
Actually, Zooba, why is it essential to believe they are 1?
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Post by metasaiah on Apr 17, 2008 11:09:49 GMT -5
Because it's true...
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Post by zooba on Apr 17, 2008 17:26:26 GMT -5
The thing about the Trinity is it is only ever implied in the Bible and in most of the creeds, yet it is still thought of as essential to out faith. Zooba knows his stuff (except when it comes to hair metal bands), and hes currently working in a Christian bookstore, so can easily look up almost anything you could ask him. Although just like everything, always check what he says against the Scriptures. Actually, Zooba, why is it essential to believe they are 1? Well the first thing I would say is that, no, the trinity is not just implied in the Bible. It is taught clearly and undeniably. Although there is nowhere in the Bible that specifically says 'God is one in three persons.', or anything like that, yet still it is a doctrine that is very clearly laid out in scripture. Actually a good idea might be to track down some debates on the subject. Suffice to say, debates between Trinitarians and modalists/unitarians are generally short and one-sided. Why is it necessary to believe they are one? Simply because Christianity is a monotheistic religion and not a polytheistic one. Really is there any teaching in the Bible clearer than the belief that there is only one God and we are to worship him alone? We believe in one God, not three, and God does not share his glory.
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Post by The Centurion on Apr 17, 2008 17:40:31 GMT -5
I agree with Zooba. I'd say it essential to our belief because it helps paint a clearer understanding of God. If Jesus and God were not the same entity it would make God look like a jerk for sacrificing Jesus for the sins of mankind. It kind of only really makes sense that God took on our sins himself in the form of Jesus.
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 18, 2008 2:07:20 GMT -5
There is a huge discusion about this over at FireStream.. and it making my head hurt
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Post by zooba on Apr 18, 2008 2:11:44 GMT -5
Hehe, It's probably for the best that I'm not on Firestream any more then, as I really think that it wouldn't be long before I got myself banned by proclaiming anathaema on the heretics in true Puritan style Basically, the Biblical model of salvation simply cannot exist without a trinitarian God. All other ideas about God compromise the gospel in some way. I'm on my 10 minute break at work at the moment so I can't go into it more atm, but will when I get home...
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Post by ironguardian on Apr 18, 2008 2:29:36 GMT -5
Ok, when you get home, please tell us how salvation cannot exist otherwise.
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Post by zooba on Apr 18, 2008 5:17:52 GMT -5
Ok, I'll try to keep it brief to avoid TL;DR...
Unitarianism - the idea that Jesus is a created being nullifies the atonement because if Jesus is not God then he cannot atone for all sin. I'm tired so I can't be bothered getting the exact quotes just yet, but its in the book of Hebrews where it goes into a big discussion of the reason why the sacrifices of the old testament had to be repeated was because the sacrifices were not perfect. Therefore, the sacrifice of Jesus alone is capable of cleansing us from sin. If you hold that Jesus is not God, then you hold that Jesus is not good, since none is good save God himself, and therefore Jesus is no more qualified to die for our sins than the animals.
Also Jesus kind of says it himself: in John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Now, the word 'He' in the NASB is italicised, meaning that its not in the originals, they have added it in for clarity. So the original reads, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. This is a clear reference to the divine name 'I AM' which is found in Exodus 3:14 and various other places in the OT:
"God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Now obviously there is a lot more that could be said about Jesus using the divine name for himself (which he does frequently in the book of John, even applying prophecies that God made in the OT to himself) but I'm trying to just give a summary here. But what it all boils down to is Jesus saying, 'unless you believe that I am God you will die in your sins.'
The next heresy (that is actually increasing popular today, it's most popular adherent today is T. D. Jakes) is called Modalism: the idea that God does not have 3 distinct persons, but rather that God has 3 distinct 'modes': He appeared as the father in the OT, then appeared as the Son in the gospels, and then as the Holy Spirit in the rest of the NT. Therefore modalism teaches that Jesus does not eternally exist, but rather came into existence upon his conception within Mary. The main problem here is that since Christ is our intercessor and mediator before the Father, and it is this mediation that saves us, how exactly is God supposed to mediate something before himself?? The entire focus of the atonement, that Christ has taken the punishment for our sins and stands as our high priest making mediation for us before the Father, so that on the day of Judgement we stand before the Father pure and blameless in his sight is completely destroyed.
I'd go into this a bit more...but dinner is ready.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 18, 2008 5:37:52 GMT -5
why does jesus the son pray to God the father then ? i mean i accept that jesus is perfect and is as perfect as God but can you asnwer that
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Post by zooba on Apr 18, 2008 6:19:04 GMT -5
because Jesus is a separate person from the Father. If you hold to a modalist perspective then you are forced to hold to the perspective that Jesus was praying to himself (I know there are some creative attempts to get around that, but they really don't hold up very well to examination), or if you are saying that Jesus is a seperate being entirely from the Father then you are polytheistic (note: I'm not saying 'you' as referring to you in particular, I'm using the word in a more general sense). Are you saying that the different persons within the Trinity must never (or could never) communicate with eachother? Also remember that during the incarnation Jesus had for a time willingly lowered himself down to our level by taking on human form (Philippians 2:5-8. Also note, in taking on human form he did not cease to be God. The Word became flesh, but he didn't cease to be the Word), so we see Jesus during his life growing in wisdom, suffering from hardships, etc. all very human experiences. Jesus, as a person distinct from the father (yet one with the father in essence) is able to pray to the Father for strength and assistance.
As you have mentioned the prayers of Jesus, please take note of Jesus' prayer in John 17. I won't quote the whole thing since we all have Bibles but take a look at verses 4 and 5: "I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
Look at that carefully: Jesus has shared the glory with the Father since before the world began. This verse single-handedly destroys modalism (since it shows that Jesus existed before the world was) and unitarianism, since it shows that Jesus shares the Father's glory, and God does not give his glory to another (Isaiah 42:8)
This verse simply cannot be logically interpreted in any way other than orthodox trinitarianism. Obviously there have been attempts made to explain these verse in a non-trinitarian fashion, but honestly most of them are so poor they really stand as their own refutation.
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Post by jmaxwell on Apr 18, 2008 7:05:47 GMT -5
ok cool that explains it a bit because i see Jesus as a seperate being to the father. So jesus was around in Heaven though b4 he was born and grew up as a man on earth though?
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Post by zooba on Apr 18, 2008 8:27:10 GMT -5
Jesus has always eternally existed with the Father as the 2nd person in the Trinity. At the time of the incarnation he willingly took on the form of man and lowered himself down to our level, then upon his resurrection he took back the glory he had with the Father from eternity past and reigns over the universe at the right hand of the Father.
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