sceptic
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Posts: 99
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Post by sceptic on Aug 28, 2007 22:42:43 GMT -5
Sorry guys I wont start heaps of threads asking you questions but the replies to my suicide thread answered a question I have pondered for a long time...
there is one other question that's been playing on my mind though, what does it mean to not be Christened?
lets say, you dont go to church but you believe in god, you say prayers and have excepted that Jesus died for our sins on the cross.
reason I asked is I was never christened, I was blessed by a priest in hospital when I was a baby (Mormon I think he was) and I now have two children and 1 on the way (in 5 weeks) none of them have been christened...what does the bible or Jesus say about this?
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Post by zooba on Aug 28, 2007 23:29:59 GMT -5
Hey don't worry about it, feel free to ask as many questions as you'd like Can I just say outright that if you were blessed by a Mormon you might as well have been blessed by an Elvis impersonator for all the spiritual good it will do you - Mormonism is a non-Christian cult. Basically, Christening is a non-Biblical ritual that does exactly nothing for you in terms of spiritual significance, though if the baby's forehead was slightly dirty then it might wash it a bit for them. Catholics believe that Christening is absolutely essential for salvation - if you aren't Christened (or at least baptised as an adult if you convert to Catholicism at a later age), you are damned to hell, period. This is one of the many things that separates Catholicism from true biblical Christianity as Christians are justified (made right with God) by their faith in Jesus - Romans 5:1 'Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.' Technically all that is required for salvation is believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, then repenting of said sins and accepting Jesus as your saviour - Romans 10:9 if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.' Though I would clarify at this point that a correct understanding of who Jesus is is as important as a belief in what Jesus did. What do I mean by this? Well for example, the aforementioned Mormons would fully agree with what I have said about Romans 10:9; one of the things that separates them from true Christianity is the Jesus they believe in is NOT the Jesus of the Bible - when they say that Jesus is the Son of God they take it literally, that God literally had sex with his goddess wife and Jesus was the result. This is one of the many (many many MANY) things separating Mormonism from true Christianity... So, in summary, Christening is a non-Christian tradition that has no bearing whatsoever on your spiritual standing (I was never Christened as a baby). We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ alone (the true Jesus of the Bible), and by nothing else. I hope that helps to clarify things for you, though feel free to ask more questions.
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sceptic
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Post by sceptic on Aug 29, 2007 3:25:51 GMT -5
ha ha...cheers, I thought as much...
thanks for the info...
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Post by ironguardian on Aug 29, 2007 7:46:45 GMT -5
As Zooba said, ask as many questions as you want to Mick. It'll not only give you something to think about, but also give the rest of us something to ponder and look into ourselves.
Christening at birth, or as a young child is not the same as baptism. As Zooba said, christening is not a Biblical ritual, but rather more of a modern church celebration where the parents dedicate (the way an author dedicates a book) their child to the Lord, and promise to bring the child up with Christian morals and values. So although it has no direct relevance to the child's salvation, it is a ceremony which can bring the community and family closer together, as they all share in the joy of God's gift of a baby.
Catholics equate christening to baptism, which is entirely unbiblical. Baptism, although not 'needed' for salvation, is a ritual where you publicly declare that you accept Jesus, the Son of God as your own personal Saviour, and then get immersed in water, symbolising the washing away of our sins. It is essentially a statement of faith, and a show of willingness to act upon that faith in a public setting. Most Christians view baptism as the turning point of where our new life starts in Christ, as it is a serious step to take, and often a lot of thought and preparation has gone into making the decision to be baptised.
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Post by zooba on Aug 29, 2007 8:17:43 GMT -5
Just a quick clarifier Iron, but pretty much all congregations (christian or otherwise) that I am aware of that practise christening do so as a replacement to adult baptism, not as a form of baby dedication. Just recently I got into a debate with one of my presbyterian friends over the topic of infant baptism. Prezzies believe that baptism is not an outward profession of faith symbolising the inward regeneration of the heart but rather they believe that baptism is like the Old Testament circumcision, the sign that marks you as part of the 'covenant community' or whatever, which is of course unbiblical (they forget that circumcision was only for males and baptism is for females too), but hey, they're otherwise generally nice people. So basically what I'm saying is, Christening and baby dedications are not the same thing. Just an FYI
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Post by ironguardian on Aug 29, 2007 10:07:53 GMT -5
You sure on that? Thats what it is called in our church, and we still have baptisms. Maybe we just use the name Christening for the dedication service.
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Post by zooba on Aug 29, 2007 20:19:24 GMT -5
its possible that the baptisms are only for those who were never Christened, though some churches that practice christening will rebaptise those who ask for it....which denomination are you if I may ask?
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Post by ironguardian on Aug 29, 2007 21:06:56 GMT -5
Sure, I'm part of the Church of Christ. Baptisms are for everyone here, regardless of weather they where christened or not.
I just checked a dictionary for the word Christening, and its 1)a Christian ritual of baptism, including the naming of the child or 2) a naming and dedicating ceremony.
Our church practices full immersion baptism for a teen/adult who wishes to take the plunge and dedicate their life to Christ. To us, the christening ceremony is just for naming and dedication, and is not believed to have anything to do with the babies salvation.
Kinda in the way you christen a ship by naming and dedicating it.
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Post by zooba on Aug 30, 2007 5:51:59 GMT -5
oh ok.
why do people always have to go and confuse things by giving different things the same name and the same thing different names? I'm sure its condemned in Leviticus somewhere
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Post by ironguardian on Aug 30, 2007 6:07:05 GMT -5
Everything is condemned in Leviticus. Before you go using Leviticus to judge others, check to see that you have tassels on the four corners of your garments
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Post by metasaiah on Aug 30, 2007 6:42:05 GMT -5
ha ha ha you're funny Iron Christening has been used for all of those things and more over the years, and often it mingles several together eg. naming, dedication, parental covenant and infant baptism all in one! This makes it difficult to clarify terms when speaking to people of other faiths. My personal belief on this is that if the person does not willingly and intelligently choose for themselves to be set apart to God, the ritual is meaningless. Trivia: one of the reasons that we believe in total immersion at baptism is related to the Great Flood; see 2 Peter ch.3.
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tabiasprime
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My King is He in the power of Three
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Post by tabiasprime on Aug 30, 2007 7:31:09 GMT -5
Easy explainions for baptism, dedecation and chistening as i see them in laymens terms are as follow.
Baptism= its more of a symbolic ritual in that is represents a clean slat and that your sins are washed away, made new and its a witness to your dedication to Jesus. Even Jesus was baptism by john the baptised, Mat 3:11 I baptize you with water to show that you have repented, but the one who will come after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. He is much greater than I am; and I am not good enough even to carry his sandals. Mat 3:14 But John tried to make him change his mind. "I ought to be baptized by you," John said, "and yet you have come to me!" Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so for now. For in this way we shall do all that God requires." So John agreed. Mat 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water. Then heaven was opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God coming down like a dove and lighting on him.
Dedication= Alot of people do this theses days for their babies but even though they arent christians. Its more of an excuse for a P****up more than anything, it has no meaning to the child in later life really or to the family. But in the same tokon i had our son dedicated at church because the dedecation wasnt so much for Archer but for the church to look after him and to teach him and to nurture him as he grows up. I know of one church who has done away with dedications to the public because of the before mentioned comment. Because with all the dedications that have been done over the years our sunday school and youth group should be packed.
chistening = See above comments, its pretty much the same thing but its something the Catholics introduced but has no significants to a persons decision to follow Jesus later on in life, choosing to follow Jesus is a personal choise and is not one that can be made for you at birth by someone pouring water over your head and saying a few words in latin and has no basis at all in scripture.
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Post by trailblazer777 on Sept 1, 2007 0:48:53 GMT -5
agreed christening or infant baptism as it is called in some church groups is not essential to be saved by God. www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl/index.htmlZooba I think your info might be right for some denominations but not others, for example in traditional anglican groups (which may or may not be evangelical, if they are not evangelical its not worth going there IMO) they have a christening or an infant baptism, and the option of "confirmation" at the age of about 13. In both cases its a nice thing for the parents or the the young teen to do especially if it encourages them to head in the right direction, but at the end of the day its worth as much as the person wants it to be worth, which can be the same for some baptised as an adult in a baptist or church of christ group. Seems to be more clear biblical support for the baptism by immersion symbol/ritual/tradition, but IMO christening,infant baptism,confirmation, and baptism by immersion are all unnecessary to be in right relationship with God. Furthermore these symbols/rituals/traditions are often used by church groups today in the same way as catholics and pharisees have applied traditions wrongly in the past thinking they are doing Gods will when they are in fact enforcing man-made rules. If church leaders push these traditions too strongly they start to foster false teaching and are in fact doing satans will. One of the reasons why I am comfortable in baptist,church of christ and evangelical anglican groups but don't agree 100% with some of the things that some of the people in these groups teach/think. at the end of the day these things can be useful and worthwhile for christians, often very meaningful, but they will NOT save you and are not needed to know God. Its a bit like going to a church group. christians dont need to go to a church group ever to be saved, but its a good idea to be a part of a good one to serve God well. If we want to be saved by God 2 ways to live explains how @ www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl/index.html
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