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Post by exodus312 on Dec 23, 2007 8:58:51 GMT -5
What are people's views on this?
I've heard people do it, and I've also had conversations with others who have heard it, and the usual conclusion is that it's quite freaky to hear when someone starts.
I've also read in places that some christian's don't actually believe that you are not a true christian unless you can actually speak in tounges.
Personally, I believe that it is a gift from God, but like all gifts, is only bestowed upon certain people.
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Post by ironguardian on Dec 23, 2007 9:04:54 GMT -5
I agree with your view on this.
It is a very rare spritual gift... and not a terribly important one these days. The gifts of serving, listening, music, etc are much more useful these days.
I don't know much about it though, I'm sure others will.
The line about people not being Christian is they don't speak in tongues... thats rubbish, bordering on heretical
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Post by exodus312 on Dec 23, 2007 9:17:54 GMT -5
yeah, I think that also. Can't remember where I read or heard it though.... I think that it may have been in book written by an american evangelical guy.... (that's not meant to be taken as a slag off to americans, by the way).
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Post by zooba on Dec 23, 2007 18:28:55 GMT -5
Yeah, there are plenty of people who believe that if you don't speak in tongues then you aren't truly saved, eg. Oneness Pentecostals. They don't believe that its the speaking in tongues that saves you, of course, rather that speaking in tongues is the sign that you are truly saved. Its completely nonsense of course. Actually one of the girls at my work was approached by someone handing out tracts in the city who told her that since she has never spoken in tongues she isn't saved. I gotta say, if someone told me that the first thing I'd say is 'ok, show me that in the Bible. Coz you know, my Bible says that the fruits of the Spirit's indwelling are love, joy, peace, patience, etc., not speaking in tongues.'
But anyways, I do believe that genuine speaking in tongues does still occur to this day but it is a rare gift. I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying this, but I believe that all those (usually Pentecostal) churches where the whole congregation speaks in tongues/rolls around on the floor etc. is complete balderdash.
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Post by metasaiah on Dec 24, 2007 0:17:32 GMT -5
Same here. I've done a lot of study on this because I attended Pente/Charismatic churches for several years - and despite my years of study I have found nothing to justify the use of tongues at all. I really wanted to be convinced that it was legit, but instead I was frustrated. I've never spoken in tongues despite the best efforts of well-meaning church members, evangelists and faith-healers etc.
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Post by pervasiveinvader on Dec 25, 2007 7:05:53 GMT -5
Evening gents! yeah, this topic is fraught with it's fair share of danger, and strewn somewhere between "If you don't, you aren't" and "it's all a big pile of crap" lies the truth. I too was, to say the least "just a little curious about all this speaking in tongues thing". From the studies I've done I believe it breaks down like this... (First let me say that all that follows is intended for your encouragement, if you take exception with anything I say please PM me and I will be happy to chat/explain)Anyone who tells you that if you don't speak in tongues you aren't a true Christian and aren't really saved IS LYING TO YOU!"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" Rom 10:10 When you acknowledge that Jesus IS master over you in your heart and verbalize with your mouth what your heart has already said then you are forgiven of God is what this verse is saying, there are countless other slabs of bible which also speak to this effect. This is speaking about CONVERSION. Conversion then turns into action as the HOLY SPIRIT begins his work of SANCTIFICATION in your life. Sanctification is when old habits and ways are "unlearnt" and new Godly ones replace them. Baptism in water is one of the actions a Christian does in reaction to this "about face" which happened at conversion. Where "Speaking in tongues" & "Baptism in the Spirit" come into this is as follows: Jesus was baptized in water and and SPIRIT and he himself baptizes with the HOLY SPIRIT (see Luke 3:16 & Matt 3:13-17) We see this "Baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT" happen again in Acts 2. The disciples had already been converted under the ministry of Jesus when they confessed many times throughout the gospels that JESUS IS THE LORD & THE CHRIST. It is recorded that the result of what happened at Pentecost in Acts 2 is that they (the disciples) spoke in tongues and this speaking in tongues resulted in empowered evangelism as Peter gave one of the most awesome sermons of his life right there and as a result about 3000 people from all over the place (Jews and gentiles) converted that very day! We see this conversion & baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT happen again in acts 9 with Saul/Paul. He is converted on the road to Damascus when he acknowledges Jesus as LORD and is baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT with Ananias in verses 17-19 of chapter 9. Paul is recorded as saying later on that he prays/speaks in tongues more than anyone! He also is empowered to evangelize and as a result of Paul and the other disciples we have Christianity today in the western world. Also this baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT & speaking in tongues gig happens again in with Cornelius and his family & buddies! (see Acts 10:35- 11:18) The point I am making is that if you choose to be baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT or not WILL NOT qualify/disqualify you from salvation. Baptism in the HOLY SPIRIT and the speaking in tongues is I believe of God and is for empowerment for evangelism. (it helps us obey Jesus when he commanded his disciples & this includes modern 2007/8 Christians to "go into all the world and make disciples..." See Matt 28:16-20 & Acts 1:4-8) Wisdom is needed with speaking in tongues however as it it of God and is VERY powerful. Many have been freaked out and offended by it when it is not used properly. Speaking in tongues can be used for your own encouragement as you commune with God in prayer. The apostle Paul says that speaking in tongues in public must be followed by an interpretation so it can encourage all those who hear it. Either way it is for encouragement and empowerment so you can obey God in making disciples. Finally, you can be as super spiritual as you like and use prophesy, speaking in tongues and all the rest but if you don't LOVE it's all useless. Lets major on the majors and let the little issues that don't effect your salvation go! I believe that there is a place for speaking in tongues and it is of God.
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Post by metasaiah on Jan 8, 2008 4:12:50 GMT -5
I'll be preaching about this and other spiritual gifts at New Start Bible Ministries this Sunday. If you have any questions about the topic it might be worth coming along.
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Post by trailblazer777 on Jan 10, 2008 7:12:44 GMT -5
I'm from the "its all a load of trash" school of thought... "speaking in tongues" aka as "speaking in languages", (tonguues is synonomous with languages in the biblical meaning) is either 1-complete self delusionial made up trash 2-undeveloped vocal chords (ie. my little 5 month old baby), 3-one of those jazz singers that likes to make lots of expressive sounds with no meaningful words 4-a stryper vocalist (i've nothing against stryper, they were one of the first bands I really got into at high school in 1988/89, and still a fav band for sure...) in between sections of the song with actual known words. 5-someone making up sounds so people will think they are a super christian sometimes like jimmy swaggart to make money out of gullible people. 6-demon-possession 7- using various ***known languages*** for the God-given purpose of telling others about God (edifying/evangelising/encouraging) , or encouraging them in the Christ (but it is a language that they understand!), as God did in a miracoulous way in Acts. Kind of a reversal of what happened at the tower of babel or should that be tower of babble *LOL* hehehe ;D ;D ;D
As a result speaking in other languages (tongues) or making sounds that have little or no useful purpose does NOT save us, and neither is it something that is a sign of us being saved (they are false teachings from satan designed to distract people from serving God)...
thats what I reckon...I feel sorry for my friends who waste so much of their lives on this trashy rubbishy teaching...
In Acts God did a one off miracle where they were able to speak in languages they did not know for the first purpose of evangelising others in their normal but different language (or tongue) which the unbelivers did not know.
The second purpose was to underline/highlight that a major change in His story had occurred with the Holy Spirit the Father and the Son now becoming known to all Christians.
Both purposes were important on this day, and intertwined in what God was saying to us then, and now. However just as jesus does not have to die on the cross every time someone becomes a christian, so we don't need another pentecost event every time someone becomes a christian, or as a regular part of a Christians life in God. God still wants to use us in his plans to save people, but looks like in most cases we will have to learn japanese or korean or chinese, or spanish, or french, or whatever language we need to if God sends us to people with a different first language...Although God could and occasionally sometimes will override the language barrier as He chooses, but not like at pentecost.
The first purpose was to also use this celebratory event to tell others the good news then and there without language (tongue) differences being a barrier, because just as God could mixup languages at Babel, he could also overcome language barriers at Pentecost to demonstrate his awesome power.
There has never been such an event in His story since and so this miracle of being able to speak other languages without taking time to learn them is unlikely to happen these days, and not needed.
There is no need at all for meaningless baby-talk/babble which is a waste of the christians time, and therefore giving time to satan...
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jcthemosher
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Post by jcthemosher on Jan 10, 2008 20:18:59 GMT -5
Well brothers and sisters we could spend time arguing over this debatable issue rather than concentrating real issue of showing people that they are sinners (through use of the 10 commandments) and letting them know that Christ offers salvation if they repent and turn to Him. (See Romans 14:1-12)
If the offering of tongues is only for the individuals edification, what good it is? If it is for empowerment for Evangelism as in the day of Pentecost then there is value in it. Think about it before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost the Apostles remained in hiding, after the outpouring they went out and boldly proclaimed the Gospel.
However from the evidence I've seen today, I've meet people who don't speak in tongues who boldly proclaim the Gospel as much as some other people I know who speak in tongues. I've also met people who speak in tongues, but are still timid to proclaim the Gospel.
If any proclaims the Gospel as a way to make you a "better person", prosperous, more spiritual, etc, it's a false way and it will come asunder.
The Gospel should be proclaimed as salvation all other things are just fruits. And gifting such as tongues and other are given to people to help them more boldly proclaim the Gospel. If someone claims to give these out for other reasons that is false too.
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Post by ironguardian on Jan 10, 2008 23:12:13 GMT -5
Good post James.
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Post by metasaiah on Jan 11, 2008 3:02:17 GMT -5
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Post by zooba on Jan 11, 2008 5:10:20 GMT -5
I think a good case in point would be C. H. Spurgeon and D. L. Moody. Neither of them ever spoke a word in tongues (Spurgeon actually was quite skeptical of speaking in tongues on the whole), yet how many millions of people have been saved by the preaching and writing of those 2 individuals over the past 100 years? More than every famous pentecostal preacher of the past 100 years combined, I have no doubt.
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Post by metasaiah on Jan 11, 2008 14:35:27 GMT -5
The trouble is that they don't get the recognition in Pente circles because they are not merited as being Christian since they DON'T speak in tongues. Pentecostals have their own forefathers of contemporary faith, whom they believe to be far superior.
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Lunkwill
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Post by Lunkwill on Feb 10, 2008 6:46:33 GMT -5
and not a terribly important one these days. The gifts of serving, listening, music, etc are much more useful these days. You hit the nail on the head here Rowland, at least imo. In Corinthians Paul says that he would rather speak ten words in a language that everyone understands so that all may benefit that to say ten thousand words in tongues. It was the least of the gifts then, and it still is today. Love is the greatest and we should exercise that gift the most.
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Lunkwill
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Post by Lunkwill on Feb 10, 2008 6:47:21 GMT -5
and not a terribly important one these days. The gifts of serving, listening, music, etc are much more useful these days. You hit the nail on the head here Rowland, at least imo. In Corinthians Paul says that he would rather speak ten words in a language that everyone understands so that all may benefit that to say ten thousand words in tongues. Kinda puts it in perspective eh?? It was the least of the gifts then, and it still is today. Love is the greatest and we should exercise that gift the most.
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